From south-bay-birds-bounces+south-bay-birds-archive=[[email protected]] Tue Sep 23 11:30:00 2003 Received: from www.plaidworks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by plaidworks.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NIQOID022987 for <[[email protected]]>; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtjones.nas.nasa.gov (rtjones.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.19.30]) by plaidworks.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NIPEZP022938 for <[[email protected]]>; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtjones.nas.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rtjones.nas.nasa.gov (SGI-8.12.5/8.12.5/NAS-6n) with ESMTP id h8NIPEhv046365 for <[[email protected]]>; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mrogers@localhost) by rtjones.nas.nasa.gov (SGI-8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h8NIPEd6046842 for [[email protected]]; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:25:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dr. Michael M. Rogers" <[[email protected]]> Message-Id: <[[email protected]]> To: [[email protected]] Subject: [SBB] more golden-plover fun X-BeenThere: [[email protected]] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2+ Precedence: list List-Id: South Bay Birding List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: south-bay-birds-bounces+south-bay-birds-archive=[[email protected]] Errors-To: south-bay-birds-bounces+south-bay-birds-archive=[[email protected]] More golden-plover discussion - delete if bored to tears :) Thanks for the great discussion and photos Al! Just a few additional comments: 1) All the visible primaries on this bird (I did not see it in flight) are old brown feathers - it is apparently not in primary molt. I did look for how close the outermost two primaries were in length and they were close, although the difference was visible. Is there a diagnostic difference in this character? If so, how much longer should the outermost feather be in AMGPL? 2) Although Mike Mammoser reported at least 4 primaries visible past the longest tertial on the right side of the bird, Roland Kenner saw only three. My own views were inconclusive. Obviously the difference here is significant - I guess we need to get more observers checking this to gather more independent assessments. 3) The bird in your second photo at http://chucao.home.comcast.net/pgpl2.jpg does indeed appear to have a surprisingly long wing extension past the tail tip. On the other hand, the tail look surprisingly short (perhaps in molt?). If that extension is real then it certainly does seem to approach that of the Alviso bird. On the other hand, my experience with adults of both species in Alaska and Hawaii (not just juveniles on migration down here) has not turned up PGPLs with such long wing extension past the tail. 4) I am not sure that your wing extension lines in Tom's photo at http://chucao.home.comcast.net/pgpltom1.jpg are accurate. On my monitor I see what I think are primaries further aft than this - admittedly it's difficult to tell what's wing and what's background. Certainly it would be nice to get a photo of the bird's right side that is not foreshortened and in which the wing tip is obvious. 5) As a result of your museum work, did you find diagnostic plumage differences between basic and alternate upperpart feathers or are your noted differences just general tendencies? Your photo of the adult male AMGPL in full breeding plumage clearly does have a different look to the upperparts. But do all birds look like this? Is it possible to definitively say that the long tertial on the right side of the Alviso bird is a new basic feather based on the narrow pale edge and minimal notching? Or are patterns in alternate and basic plumage subject to much overlap? Looking at Joe Morlan's mystery golden-plovers at http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jmorlan/oct99.htm, I certainly see a greater mix of white and gold edges that do suggest a more alternate or transitional type pattern than that of the Alviso bird. 6) Lastly, before locating the plover on Sunday, I heard a plover "too-eee" call that I presume came from the bird (it was not a Semipalmated or Black-bellied call). The Tundra Plovers book apparently lists "TUli" for AMGPL and "tjuitt" for PGPL, but other references suggest complete overlap in calls - so perhaps this means nothing. I Guess I now have a good excuse to go study this bird some more :) Mike Rogers _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. south-bay-birds mailing list ([[email protected]]) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://www.plaidworks.com/mailman/options/south-bay-birds/south-bay-birds-archive%40plaidworks.com This email sent to [[email protected]]